Joyce Turner:
So it keeps crumbling and we keep putting it back together. But if it ever gets swept up right, and lands in the trash can, then we certainly want all of our work clients to be in a position to prosper, not just survive, but prosper as things continue to evolve. So looking forward to a great conversation here and learning from both of you today, because I don’t think anyone has all the answers, we’re all figuring it out. So it should be a great dialogue.

Kyle Holloway:
And you bring up the challenges that your particular sector that you’re focused on has when it comes to a lot of the changes going on. So why don’t you talk to us a little bit about what you’re hearing on the ground, what are the CPG and kind of manufacturing folks saying, because I know you’re in a lot of meetings with them and talking through current state versus what’s coming down the road and pretty quickly, what are you hearing?

Joyce Turner:
So I think a handful of things? Or a small handful. Number one across the board, what almost every brand universally that I’ve spoken to has come to accept is they must master first party identity. I can tell you talking to the same people two years ago and and they didn’t believe so. These are industries and brands. I like to say, go look in your pantry. There are world class brands sitting in your pantry who do not know that their product is sitting in your pantry or in your medicine cabinet. If we’re talking about over-the-counter pharmaceuticals. So they don’t know, they do not know that I might be a brand loyalist and have not been successful in capturing that data. Universally, they all believe now that they need to know who those brand loyalists are so that they can maintain the relationships and they can even more so maintain their ability to communicate and engage with those brand loyalists.

Joyce Turner:
The world is changing and how they do that will not be the same. So universally they have accepted that they need to do more on first party data. Universally, they have also accepted that no one knows how to do that cost effectively. So a lot of what we spend time… It’s one thing to know something else to do. So we buy pantry items largely through some other retailer who then owns that relationship. So a lot of what we’re looking at is how do brands collaborate across ecosystems so that it’s good for all? There’s no collaboration that any brand wants to have that’s not mutually beneficial. So one tactic that they’re all looking at is how do I better collaborate with retailers and merchants that carry my products? The thing that we’re pushing quite frankly, is that they are much, much more systemic in capturing engagement data.

Joyce Turner:
I have reframed engagement data and we still are on the pathway. Can’t wait to hear what you all have to say about this, but we’re in reframing engagement data as first party data. So you brands that are engaging with consumers and particularly doing that digitally, when you engage and I engage with you, that’s your interaction behavior that’s not someone else’s assuming that the publishers where those behaviors are occurring will allow access to that data. If they will, it is your responsibility right now to be capturing what is truly already your own asset. And it continues to be amazing to me how much brand engagement data falls on the floor. It never gets loaded into a repository so that I can go do the type of work I’m interested in. I was just thinking about where Google is headed and my own search behavior, I can tell you is rarely anything in my pantry.

Joyce Turner:
I don’t know what segment I fall into then. And I don’t think it’s consistent across time. Only consistency might be when I’m searching to go back to the same destination or checking store hours or something like that. So I don’t know that there’s a lot of consistency in my search behavior. So brands, if you have large populations who already have bought into your story and are not going to go search for Kraft Macaroni & Cheese, and let me tell you, I don’t know if I have ever searched macaroni and cheese. You’re never going to search for that term, then how do I capture the information even when I have a consumer in a household that is a brand loyalist? So they need to capture that data today. We’re most definitely saying, “Well, the question is, how do I go capture first party data cost effectively?”

Joyce Turner:
What we’re ignoring all at the same time is you’re already generating it and you’re just not storing it. So there’s a massive cost-effective way for you to today collect first party data, start to really understand the profiles and then build up those store houses. Once the cookies are no longer there to provide that insight, you already have a storehouse that you can use and leverage to augment contextual and other plays that you might make, including direct consumer engagement, because you did the work in advance. So that’s really what we’re hearing and what we’re seeing right is the market has been very successful in helping everyone understand that things are changing and there’s a first part in data then is rising to the fore and then affordability becomes the question. And we’re saying, there are ways to go do that and do it cost effectively. You just have to do that now. Don’t wait until all of the places where you could capture the data no longer provides it back. So more than a little bit of background there, Kyle, on what we’re doing, hopefully.

Kyle Holloway:
Yeah, no, that’s fantastic. And certainly as you’re talking, things are coming to my mind of what I’m seeing just in the general marketplace. Just as a consumer myself, things that I’m seeing or hearing, or even that I’ve heard through some conversations with clients and prospects. And some of the things that come to mind are certainly the rise of direct to consumer. I mean, some of that is a supply chain thing. Some of that is just a value with the consumer and the ability for consumers to kind of bypass middlemen and buy direct. But that’s creating a first party data that’s already happening and just, are they capturing that correctly and how much are they leaning into that kind of direct consumer?

Kyle Holloway:
But then I always love the kind of unique or interesting ways that you see brands trying to do things such as like Coke music, they’re in an industry where you’re like, “What does Coke have to do with music?” Well, it’s a means for them to actually reach consumers, right? In a way that gives them that direct touch by sponsoring concerts, by providing downloadable material, allowing them, I think the whole NFT trend that’s like exploded honestly, is partly because it gives random brands the opportunity to actually engage a consumer directly and make a sell on something that isn’t in their traditional product set, but allows them to capture some first party data and then going all the way to what’s slowly becoming one of my favorite topics, the Metaverse.

Joyce Turner:
Oh, the metaverse.

Kyle Holloway:
Oh, the metaverse but like, like Gucci recently sold in the metaverse a digital version of a Gucci bag. I’d love to know… I don’t remember what the name of it was. I don’t know. I don’t remember all their special styles, but they sold one and they sold it in the metaverse for more than they did for-

Dustin Raney:
The actual bag.

Kyle Holloway:
… The actual bag itself, like the digital version of it. The reality is they’re now connecting with a consumer and a consumer is taking that loyalty that you spoke about and being able to present it in a new way. And that drives a new type of consumer engagement, new first party data. Now some of these, like the metaverse and such give some challenges because of going to the identity side of it, the anonymization and the way to do that.

Kyle Holloway:
So it is opening a whole other challenge for brands to say, “Hey, I’m capturing first party data and I really don’t know what to do with this data.” So it’s really interesting in a dynamic ecosystem right now, but it’s good to hear and good to see that brands are being aware and they’re starting to be more active, but it does seem that there is no formula yet. I think in general, or strategy, I think we would say there is a baseline strategy and Dustin is near and dear to your heart, but you know, it’s first collect, right?

Dustin Raney:
That’s right.

Kyle Holloway:
It’s collect the data and do that in any means possible, with a privacy-conscious manner and start being able to integrate that into an identity graph.

Dustin Raney:
Joyce, what you’re saying just about, that those areas, every point of engagement is an opportunity for a brand, no matter how big or small to start to get understanding, to get intelligence.

Dustin Raney:
And it’s really a reframing of, shifting people’s mindsets about identity. So rather than looking at identity in many ways as a cost center, for instance, “Oh, I’ve got to pay so much money to have an identity service to enable to stitch…” Well, no, we’re going to… Let’s reframe that to identity as an asset. All those points of engagement, if you’re not capturing it, then you’re not building that asset that you own. So giving brands the ability to build that asset and monetize that asset, and we’re talking about the Coca-Colas of the world, the Kellogg’s, all those brands you see on TV every day that maybe you didn’t engage with directly now have opportunities to really start to move the needle in this area that of understanding personal engagement and a one-on-one engagement and taking more control over that relationship with their customers.

Joyce Turner:
So let’s weave all of that together. So here’s what’s interesting. Oh, you’re you’re right. There is the rise of direct to consumer. And I mentioned that I am fortunate in being able to see the same problem from multiple lenses or directions. So when I look at a grocery who we also have, we have all of the grocery chains and they care about who owns the customer, who owns the relationship. And when it’s the brand, they care about direct to consumer. Here’s the funny thing in the food merchant space, I was having a conversation yesterday with the team and we were talking about how many apps do you want to have on your phone to do what… And we were talking about all of the work that if you ride down a street that has all of the ways, different ways that you can consume food.

Joyce Turner:
Our fast food, fine dining, quick-serve restaurants, all on the same strip because it, every city in America has some similar tendencies there. You see then all of these brands that need to go do work. And then the question is, did they do the work before? And I can tell you first hand that you can be going to Burger King every single week and every single day buying the same hamburger and they don’t know. Because the systems were set up to collect the money, not necessarily to connect with me as a person and they are not alone. You can say that about almost every restaurant, right? And then I see all of the many restaurants looking to fix that. But then the question becomes, how many different restaurant apps do I want to have on my phone versus a singular point of intersection, which might be a food delivery service.

Joyce Turner:
Food delivery to me, looks like a grocery store. Looks like a retailer now. So I have all the brands sitting on the shelf and then you go pick your brand. And I then also own a relationship. So when we’re looking at the environment in which everyone is operating, very dynamic, but needs to be looked at through the lens of us as individual consumers, not necessarily, what’s good for the brand. Obviously if I can get you to use my app on your phone, that’s likely the best thing that I can do, but realistically will I have 30 different apps on my phone for every restaurant I might frequent? Probably not likely. But, and maybe one day we’ll see for those that come behind us, that you embed the chip in my head and I can see it.

Joyce Turner:
Like we’ll let Elon Musk figure the embedded chip out. Right. So I don’t have to put the app on my phone. That’s a whole other, along with the metaverse right. We’ve got Elon Musk with embedded brain chip. And at the same time, Dustin, you mentioned, I started thinking about what’s happening as well with device manufacturers. So if I can dream for a second, if I can go all the way into nerd mode, right. If I can dream for a second, what I believe will happen over time is this ecosystem where devices, which now collect a lot of data. Manufacturers now must use a Keurig machine that has programmable functions, that’s connected to your wifi, could be your light bulb, because they’re connected to the wifi. And a lot of the other systems are now they’re continuing to build toward connectivity.

Joyce Turner:
Even your refrigerator. There are refrigerators that will take a picture of what’s in the refrigerator so that you can load up your shopping list. It’s not a stretch for me to take that shopping list and automate the shopping list into an order that goes to X retailer. So the dream that I have, the rising dream, I don’t even think it’s a dream it’s just like paying attention. Is that all of these places now, devices and interaction mechanisms that we have the data about a consumer in a household is going to sit in many hands. So the elegance with which we apply identity and connective fabric to that data. Then if I’m looking at a light bulb in a household that’s wifi enabled, how then do I apply identity on top of that light bulb so that it has applicability to the broader ecosystem?

Joyce Turner:
And then guess what? I do the same thing with my coffee machine and my coffee company that I prefer to use. I can do the same thing with my milk company sitting inside the refrigerator. Because I’ve got identity stitching with the device ecosystem or internet of things that also then converges around what? People. It converges around individual consumers and households. So the way we’re looking at identity is through the lens, not of where it is today and oh, by the way, there’s a lot that needs to be done. It’s where it’s headed. The place that we see that all of it is headed is that devices will continue to build in relevance to our lives. They will build in their connectivity to the ecosystem. Just imagine this: I get so excited when I think about what’s going on in manufacturing.

Joyce Turner:
Smart TVs already do this. They look more like cell phones where that smart TV device manufacturer knows what I’m watching, when I’m watching, and which commercials I am engaging with. If I am Kraft Macaroni & Cheese, I care about the commercials on that smart device and on that streaming service that Joyce interacted with. There is this building web of needed connectivity that all leads back to people. So when I think about identity, I think about the work that has to be done, there’s immediate work, absolutely, that needs to be done to build up store houses. And then when I get past that, I see this evolving, fast-moving web, where more devices are creating more data than ever before. And people who build devices, they’re not really thinking about how that data connects within the ecosystem. So the work that we have an opportunity to do today is, if you’re going to go build a smart device and connect it to a household, what are you doing with the data that is coming out of that?

Joyce Turner:
And then how do you plan to intersect that data within the broader data exchange that we have an opportunity to enable? So I think it’s an exciting time to study it. But even more so it is an exciting time to influence the work that people do today because the capabilities are there. Everyone’s not thinking. Because if I’m device, I’m just thinking about how do I make the best coolest, smartest device. I’m not necessarily thinking about how that translates into people data, and then how do I connect people data to the people who care. But it’s there. And I can promise you there are hundreds and thousands of brands who care about the interaction with my commercial that ran on your device that triggered my coffee buy that landed in my web-enabled coffee maker that then cooks my coffee in the morning and then repeats that so that I don’t have to do anything.

Joyce Turner:
My coffee shows up and one day we’ll have a robot that loads that coffee into the coffee maker. Not there yet, but you can just imagine. You can kind of see like this building, energy and innovation around how data enables consumers to live lives easier. And if we’re smart about how we do that as a broader ecosystem, I think the sky’s the limit. So I’m super excited about watching that ecosystem evolve and then helping all of the brands who are not savvy people. Companies might be great with big brand marketing or great with device manufacturing and need help then to understand how to best create, collect… Dustin for you, right. Create, collect, manage, and then-

Dustin Raney:
That’s right.

Joyce Turner:
… Utilize all of those assets within the broader metaverse. So yeah, I’m excited. And NFTs, That’s a whole different animal.

Joyce Turner:
I don’t know that I get… Listen you can copy and paste it. I don’t know that I got let me… What you can’t do, right. That same Gucci purse that sold, that’s a virtual thing I can copy and paste and send that around a hundred thousand times. I don’t know yet how that makes sense to me. That I owned it. I don’t know what ownership got me. So let me just say, I have much, much, much work to do to really better understand the NFT space and the virtual NFTs and how a ownership of an asset that can be very easily replicated via cut and paste yields me any value. I just haven’t figured that out yet, but I promise you if I do, I’ve got a bunch of NFTs for sale. That’s my plan. It’ll be pictures from this whole podcast. Like I got NFTs, unique digital assets. So I am super excited to see how it all unfolds.

Kyle Holloway:
Yeah. Joyce, you’re really touching on creative ways brands are driving customer experience, not just selling a unique product, but the way you buy the product or engage with the product. And those are the brands that are going to win. And what does it take? Identity. As a matter of fact, I’ll sit there and I’ll be eating a bowl of cereal with my girls in the morning and on the back of those boxes are QR codes. I open my pantry, on the back of the mac and cheese box another QR code. Like in CPG, there’s all these creative ways now that brands can now capture data and then drive them from a terrestrial experience, like a physical box or physical product, and leverage that to drive loyalty, drive them back to a website and can connect now the device, get them to make them sell. If there’s enough value there… We eat mac and cheese every day. We consume a lot of that. It’s like, “What am I willing to give? And do I even have the experience to give it? Do I have the opportunity to give it?” So it’s creating those opportunities and there’s so many unique things happening in the space.

Joyce Turner:
I think that’s universal with the value exchange. What is the handshake between the brand and the consumer, so that I give you more and allow you to see more? I would suggest that some of that handshake is also individual brand doing the identity work as data is being collected. So the consumer can be passive. So there are places where the consumer is doing something actively. And then there are places where they’re just going about their everyday lives. Can we make it easy, via identity, for just my normal behavior to… in a permissioned way, a privacy- compliant, a permissioned way. If I can then just enable the ecosystem to make it easier for me to do everything. And I do think, Dustin, there are transformational experiences that brands can unlock. I think Coca-Cola has been at it a long time.

Joyce Turner:
So, music and engagement, they got free touch machines and vending machines that they have around the world where you’re just interacting with other people. Like you call somebody anonymously… Coca-Cola is on a whole different level. So if anybody can figure it out on amongst other brands that are really progressive, they really spend a lot of time thinking about the customer experience and how to unlock a differentiated value exchange where you want to interact with me more. Now, does that mean 80-90% of us go… do all of those things today? Maybe not, maybe not. But there are other ways for Coca-Cola to get those same insights. There are direct data exchange or engagement, and then the broader ecosystem. I think you have to look at it all, get everything that you can directly. And then realistically, you’re going to need to interact with the broader ecosystem because there’s some fall off with engagement. Kyle, I think you’re chomping at the bit to tell us all about the metaverse.

Kyle Holloway:
No, actually not about the metaverse yet. But what you brought to mind was and talking about the ease and stuff. I’m thinking about my printer. My printer orders its ink, because I’ve set up policy with the vendor to say, “Here’s my information, including my payment information.” And then it takes over, right. It goes, and it says, “Oh, you’re low on black.” And it will go out and it’ll order it. And next thing I know I’m getting a package delivered to my door and it’s like, “Okay, great. There’s my ink.” And there’s all this PII and all this first party data that’s being captured through that process. So just the thought of that, and then parlaying that into your conversation around devices as a whole, and just thinking, “Hey, I’ve got a mini fridge that I keep my Diet Cokes in. And if you just added some capability to that where it’s monitoring my Diet Coke shelf, I would be more than happy if it just automatically ordered me Diet Cokes and they came to my door.”

Kyle Holloway:
So it is an interesting interplay there between the use of the product, whether it’s a drink or a printer and its ability to then take action that I find value in and therefore I’m willing to share and provide that identity and payment information. So it’s really interesting. But then you think about the combination of those and the challenge between a mini fridge manufacturer, who’s actually the one capturing the data because they’re the one that have done the snapshot and they might even be the one buying on my behalf with the CPG, the Coke. I’m not necessarily buying it directly from Coke. I’m buying it through this other…

Kyle Holloway:
Is the aspect of data sharing within those ecosystems. Not just me sharing with either the device manufacturer or the brand, but actually the device manufacturer and the brand sharing data together, which you know, is really driving I think a lot of the push towards reinvigorated, I’ll say reinvigorated, because it’s not new, but a reinvigorated conversation around clean room and around general data marketplace, as well as doing that in such a privacy-conscious manner that there’s, zero trust models where sensitive data isn’t leaving either place. Whether it’s the manufacturer or the CPG. But at the same time, they’re able to share enough data and tie it to a type of identity. And I think that’s a key thing about identity is, identity is no longer just about Kyle. There’s all types of identity. There’s pseudonymous identities. There’s purely anonymous identities. It’s still a entity though.

Kyle Holloway:
And then there is that aspect of the convergence of our digital identity with our terrestrial, as Dustin put it. And even our physical, such as facial recognition capabilities and what’s happening in the travel industry and being able to have zero-touch onboarding onto an airplane and such, where it’s using more of our physical characteristics. So much going on. And like you said, it’s a exciting industry to be in, both from the identity side, seeing it playing out. But, I just love watching the innovation and the creative juices flowing everywhere. I saw some article, which is like, some toothpaste or a toothbrush brand or something. And it was talking about how it’s reinvigorated itself by dreaming about how to connect to the consumer. And so it is an exciting time. And I would say we could talk about this for hours and hours and hours, but unfortunately we are at the end of our podcast window. So Joyce, thank you so much for your insights and your enthusiasm and just being on the show, loved having you here. And hopefully our listeners got some good information out of this and can bring their ideas to us. If so, visit us at www.axiom.com/realtalk. So that’ll be all for today’s episode.

Joyce Turner:
And vote for a repeat. So all of the podcasters who see this episode vote and request, episode two, because I want to come back and there’s some places we never did get a chance… Please do let us know that you want to hear more, cannot wait.

Kyle Holloway:
We will definitely bring you back on, Joyce. Like I said, so much to unpack and really excited about that. So thank you everyone for sticking with us and look forward to talking again on our next episode.